727 not shifting out of 1st.

[Mach Manny]

My nearly stock 727 (b&m shift kit) tranny is not shifting out of 1st. I've checked fluid level, kickdown linkage, and various vacuum lines. Happened on the way back from work.

Any ideas? I'm hoping i'm just overlooking something obvious. Thanks.

[fox]

To help diagnose this, try to rev it in first then try to get it shift to third, skipping 2nd. If this works the you have a front band problem.
Also does reverse work.?

[Mach Manny]

Yes, reverse works. Manually shifting does not skip me into 3rd. Any more ideas?

[fox]

I would supect the Valvebody to have a stuck 1-2 shift valve or a kick-down valve. What rpm did you rev it to to try to get a 1-3 shift?

[dave571]

More likely that there is a problem with the governor weight. Stuck, so the valve body doesn't know the car is moving.

Try what fox was suggesting, with the wheels in the air. With it in drive, if it will skip to third, then the governor is ok, and the problem is in the valve body.

Depending on you experience level, a Transmission shop is likely in your future. That, or a swap.

[dwc43]

Most likely your problem is the b&m junk kit. I've seen them stick in both 1st and 2nd gear with no upshifts to third. Best thing to do is scrap it and get a kit or a manual/auto valve body from TCI. Check them out at www.tciauto.com They can fix you up with what you need.

[John Kunkel]

Rather than to arbitrarily place blame on some shift kit or another, it would be wise to do some basic troubleshooting.

Since the problem occured suddenly, it's unlikely that the throttle pressure linkage is at fault but, to be sure, temporarily disconnect the linkage from the top lever on the trans and let the lever come full forward. If the trans still won't upshift with the linkage disconnected, the problem is internal.

On the bottom of the tailhousing, just forward of and below the speedo cable adapter, there is a test port for the governor pressure. Remove the plug and hook up a test gauge. With the throttle pressure linkage reconnected and the rear wheels free to turn, place the shifter in Drive and accelerate. The governor pressure should rise with the wheel speed; if it does, the problem is likely in the valve body but if it doesn't rise, the governor is faulty.

One common failure of the governor is the breakage of the E clip that retains the weight/valve link. When this fails, the valve and link fall out of the governor body resulting in no governor pressure.

[Mach Manny]

I tried manually shifting 1-3 at 2k RPM (normal) and upwards of 3k (attempting to force an upshift by backing off the throttle). I've got the car on stands and was planning to start by changing the fluid/filter and brake-cleaning the valve body. I will then diagnose the pressure linkage. Hopefully i can just stop there.

John-
When testing for governor pressure, do you happen to know of specific pressures at idle/1k/etc RPM or am i just looking for an increase?

What diagnoses are there to determine if i just need a band adjustment?

I'll start scratching at this tomorrow and post an update. Thanks so much for your input.

[John Kunkel]

Testing the shift quality while the car is on jack stands is a poor idea. The internal drag of some released components will make the transmission appear to be in a different gear than it actually is, it needs the resistance of the vehicle to properly shift.

The actual governor pressure at the test port isn't all that important, what you want to see is a steady increase in governor pressure with the increase in driveshaft speed. At a standstill with the shifter in drive, the governor pressure should read no higher than 2 psi.

I would disconnect the linkage and road test the trans before any further troubleshooting or disasembly.

If the kickdown band were the problem, it would probably eventually shift 1-3 but it could still be a loose/malfunctioning band. While the pan is off, pull down firmly on the front band lever; it should have no more than 3/8" of travel and should spring back up when released. If it's looser than that, it needs adjustment.

Brake cleaning the valve body in place serves no purpose, it might even drive dirt into unwanted places. Only removal, disassembly and thorough cleaning will address valve body problems.

[Manning]

OK, i agree with you about testing the tranny with some load on the drivetrain. But i'm assuming this is the procedure when checking for governor pressure? It only depends on output shaft speeds right?

By the way, where are you located John?

[bwlizard]

Originally posted by John Kunkel
Rather than to arbitrarily place blame on some shift kit or another, it would be wise to do some basic troubleshooting.

Thanks John !
I don't think DWC sells B & M that's why he hates them ! More Sales ! More Sales !

[dwc43]

I dont sell b&m junk or TCI 's quality parts. Makes me no money either way. I hate to see some one waste there time installing junk and wastimg there hard earned money.

[John Kunkel]

With a little research it's easy to find out that the parts in the "junk" kit and the venerated kit all come from the same source and wind up in different boxes.
Does anybody think B&M or TCI have little factories in the back lot where they bond clutch and band linings or machine shops that whittle out valves and springs? Uh, uh, they're made by vendors, some wind up in a blue box and some wind up in an orange box.

[Manning]

Ok, here's an update. I disconnected the kickdown linkage from the tranny lever and manually engaged it all the way forward. During my test drive i still could not get a manual shift from 1-3.

I located the governor pressure plug, but before i go out and borrow a test gauge, can i simply use my thumb to test for pressure increase?

Assuming the pressure doesnt increase and my governor is faulty, is it accessibe with the tailshaft housing in place, or will i need to pull it?

Thanks again.

[John Kunkel]

You need to hook up a gauge.
The tailhousing must be removed to access the governor.

[Manning]

OK, here's an update:

After testing and getting no increase in governor pressure, i figured it was finally time to crack open the tranny. I was able to unbolt the tailshaft housing from the main case, and slide it back on the output shaft to take a look at the governor.

The governor is absolutely mangled! Its housing is severely gashed, the pin the weights slide on is bent and missing the smaller end e-clip, and the retaining plates are bent up too.

Now, i dont see how i'm going to be able to remove the tailshaft housing. The output shaft of my tranny extends a few inches past the torsionbar crossmember, so i cant lower the tranny without them binding. Also, if i slide the housing as far back as possibe, it doesnt look like there's enough room to slide the governor and rear bearing off the output shaft.

Before i go out and try to find a torsion bar puller, this there an easier way to pull the tailshaft housing? Or the dang lockrings retaining the rear bearing?

Thanks.

[Manning]

By the way, while doing a little independing googling, i found the HotRod article about swaping in the A518 4spd OD tranny in place of the 727. Perhaps this will be a future upgrade...

http://www.hotrod.com/howto/43323/

[John Kunkel]

An excellent example of how good troubleshooting technique beats random speculation.

The carnage you describe isn't all that uncommon when one of the e-clips on the cross pin fail.

There should be sufficient room to drop the rear of the engine/trans and remove the tailhousing. You will need a pair of quality snap ring pliers for the ball bearing retaining rings.

That Hot Rod article makes the 518 swap look like a snap. What they don't show in the pictures is often missed in the text:
"As the Mopar catalog stated, a fairly “major” chunk of the driveshaft tunnel had to be “modified” before the tailshaft housing would clear the bo

[Manning]

OK, i've got the rear bearing and governor housing off. There is not enough room inside the tailshaft housing to slide them off!

The output shaft of the tranny extends about 2" past the torsion bar crossmember, and the tailshaft housing is severly hung up in that loop.

1. pull the torsion bar crossmember?

or

2. pull the motor up and out about a foot?

thanks.

[John Kunkel]

You have to remove the crossmember and drop the tail of the trans in order to remove the tailhousing.

[Manning]

Ok, after yet another day of changing the governor out, here's my progress.

I lowered the preload on the torsion bars by backing off on both tbar adjusters. Then, i unbolted the two body mounts at the tbar crossmember mount, and pryed/hammered on the xmember. I was able to free the torsion bars from the lower control arms, and pulled them all the way out through the xmember. But, i still wasnt able to drop the xmember enough to slide the tailshaft housing past the outputshaft because of the dual exhaust h-pipe xover... So... down came the tailpipes, xmember, torsion bars, and finally the tailshaft housing.

Then i pulled the tranny pan to inspect the metallic deposits... and found a FAILED e-clip! (a round of applause for john k.) My local tranny shop, Ron's Transmissions in Sunnyvale, was able to hook me up with a governor housing, weights, retaining pin, e-clips, bolts, retaining plates, snap ring, etc

Alright, so i'm about halfway done with the reassembly. I'm having doubts about putting the tailshaft housing in because i cant remember which way the rear bearing goes!!??

Could someone with a FSM tell me if the snapring groove on the bearing should be in the forward or aft position??

Also, it seems like the tailshaft housing is hung up on the internal shifter linkage. I have the shifter in Park.. that's all there is to it?

Ok, well when this is all said and done, i will post a glamorous shot of all the chasis parts i had to remove to perform a simply governor change...

[dans76sport]

your governor is stuck, take the tailhousing off and fix or replace the governor. They are less than 20 bucks at any auto transmission parts house. Quit messing around and fix it.

[Manning]

imma working on it pal....

[John Kunkel]

The snap ring groove in the ball bearing goes to the front.
A rod extends from the valve body into the tailhousing to activate the parking pawl; if the end of the rod won't pass through the tailhousing, turn the output shaft slightly to align the pawl and the rod will then pass through the housing.

[Manning]

Horray! The charger moves under its own power! Everything is back together, the shifts are crisp, and the car's stance is 'in the weeds'. Tonight i will do some victory crusing, tighten all the xmember bolts, and adjust the ride height.

THANKS JOHN K!

[Manning]

some pictures