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-   -   twin turbo 440? A budget build... (http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30829)

TT440 07-13-2001 08:38 PM

twin turbo 440? A budget build...
 
I had someone ask me to post a little info over here, so here I is.
The TT440 has been alive for a couple months and I'm working the final bugs out. This was a budget build put together in my driveway except for the welding. I spent two years researching and collecting parts before starting the build. I have designed the entire system but did reference the pros on the cam and turbo designs.
My next toy will be an '87 Grand Fury cop car. The roller 318 will be getting twins too. Talk about a sleeper! That build shoud run about $400 if I get a welder first.

Here's a quickie run-down:
Pearl Black '65 Belvedere
1970 440 bottom end.
452 heads
.030 over forged flatties at 8.7:1
custom ground cam (mild)
Edelbrock Performer intake
carter 750 carb
twin T3/T4 hybrid turbos (custom built)
Tial wastegates
2.2 turbo blow off valves (2)

I was looking for 650 hp on pump gas. It looks like I made it. I need to upgrade the fuel return line this weekend. The regulator doesn't react fast enough for full throttle bursts.
I can tell you that with 2/3 throttle and 8 psi, it's accelerating faster than the .509 cammed 440 ever could.

As soon as the fuel return is fixed, I'll go for some dyno numbers. I can't take it to the track due to lack of a cage. They don't buy the "it only runs 12's" bit.

If'n ya want to see the site we're putting together, you can check it out at the link. Be warned, the first page is very techie/wordy but the other two pages have lotsa pictures. I'm working at upgrading the page.
TT440 page

djswwg 07-13-2001 11:01 PM

TT440---you are 1 sick puppy! And I mean it..........in the nicest possible way of course!!!!!!!!!!!! The pictures on your website are GREAT; especially the burnout. That's a super looking car by the way! So now the BIG question; what are the 1/4 mile stats??:D :D thanks.....................djs

Thunderhead 07-14-2001 12:44 AM

Hey Feets, 'ole Thunderhead here! Before you came along I was all well and good with the idea of a 500ci BB! Now if I could only put the set-up together for my 65 Fury 383!!! I remember you saying something about using different wastegates, right? Let me know. I think I could actually pull this off!
Thunderhead

TT440 07-14-2001 01:22 AM

Times and dyno results are still a little bug away. I need to replace the fuel return line before I can hold continuous boost. The small return line is fooling the regulator and causing problems. I do expect around 600 hp and low 11s at first. I should be able to dial it in from there. I don't think 650 or mid 10s will be a problem.

T-head... I was talking about using wastegates mounted on the turbos. Just like factory cars. They're much cheaper. It would cut the wastegate price from $450 to around $50 or so.
I went with the higher flow externals. The difference is not appreciable at current power levels, but it will come into play as I go higher/faster/farther.

Again, this was a super easy build. Doing my homework before the build is what made it such a breeze. For once, I fully understood what I was doing. ;)
All my big fuel problems were traced to a persnickity pump. It was working sporadically. Sometimes high psi, sometimes low. The new fuel pump made a drastic improvement. It has shown that my return line is indeed too small. The new 1/2" tubing should be more than adequate.

Dr. Righteous 07-14-2001 10:38 AM

HA! I love it!
 
Been a dream of mine to build a twin turbo setup. I have a 8:1 '73 400 begging for a rebuild saved for this purpose.
I posed a question in the 'supercharging' thread for you 440TT.

I would love a similar build up in a B body (a 71 or 72 RR or Sat if my dreams come true) with this 400 built for TOP END!!
That's right! A skinny 2:73 gear and balls 'o steel! It would be fun different for sure and get reasonable gas mileage :)

Dr. Righteous 07-14-2001 10:53 AM

THUNDERHEAD! Sweet Fury man!
 
I'm a C-body fan myself but I have all my bread invested in my current B body project. C bodies are plentiful and CHEAP and you can usually find them in FANTASTIC condition!! A neighbor of my knot head brother was selling a SWEET '67 Fury 2dr HT 383 car for $1200 a few months ago. He didn't advertise it so only locals and passers by knew about it. I didn't have the bread myself but I kept nagging my brother to SNAG THAT BARGAIN before someone else did! He kept putting it off until one the car was gone. My brother asked the old man if he sold it and the old man said "YEP! I couldn't sell it then a guy offered me $600 cash and I took it because I was tired of it killing the grass in my yard!"
Needless to say my bro almost fainted!~ This car sat across the street from him for months.

TT440 07-14-2001 01:57 PM

mileage?
 
Hey there good Doc...

Would you believe that using a 4.30 gear and 833 OD tranny has given me 17 mpg in the TT440?
Your STOCK cam in that 400 would make bunches of power. It's one of the best choices out there.

If you were after a budget deal, It could be done for $2000 or less. The price would depend upon your abilities.
The '66 and newer B bodies have much larger engine compartments. It would be fairly easy to keep the turbos under the hood and not poke 'em through the inner fenders.

rb77413 07-15-2001 12:05 AM

SO ur gonna do a Dip. I have a Ex-cop car now sitting engineless, waiting for another 318 for me to drop in. Twin Turbos would be cool in that car. PURSUIT!!!! :D Let us know how it turn out. Any ideas on using the 2.2L Garrett Turbos on the small block? They might not put out enough air. Any ways Let us know. Good luck on ur project, And it is a very nice car.

Bob

TT440 07-15-2001 01:25 AM

Those are the exact turbos I'm going to use on the cop car. They will feed enough air for a mild boost 318 at reasonable rpm.
A 360 would begin to suffer and a 383 would choke with them.

mr_340 07-15-2001 11:26 PM

Blow Through Carb
 
How do you handle the fuel pressure on the carb under boost? I remember that this was one of the hardest things to overcome when using a carb. Are you plumbing the boost signal to a Holley-type regulator to increase the fuel pressure under boost?

TT440 07-16-2001 12:12 AM

Howdy neighbor!!!
 
I'm using a Mallory 4309 regulator and Carter 15 psi pump.
The regulator is made with a boost refrence port.
Most regulators and mechanical pumps have atmospheric ports. That's how they hold 6 psi in Dallas and Denver without calibration. The Mallory simply has a vacuum line barb on it's vent/port. Boost pressure is fed into the port. The pressure pushes on the diaphragm and changes the pressure accordingly. Boost goes up 1 psi, fuel goes up 1 psi.

The setup I plan on using for the cop car is much easier. I'll tap into the atmo port on a Carter high volume mechanical fuel pump and feed it a little boost. It's what I should have done on the TT440, but NOOOOOO I had to get fancy. I've been paying for that with fueling problems. I just replaced my return line this evening. The car has picked up big power. Fuel pressure is better balanced now. I've still got a little bug to work out. I'll run the fuel pressure gauge up on the cowl so I can see what's happening under boost. It feels like I'm draining the bowls under full throttle bursts. I need to see if it's a pressure or metering problem.

curious 07-16-2001 02:18 AM

just asking you,before consulting turbo guy
 
what do you think of the idea of "sequential turbochargers"? if you never heard of the term, its where you run one small turbo (such as 2.2 garret) and one larger turbo. the smaller one spools up faster at lower rpm while the larger one supplies the monstrous amount of air needed at higher rpms. im doing some studying and come accross this technique. sound stupid or risky? why? plan on buy/borrowing/stealing/begging as much info as possible. if i cant get enough info ill prolly take the lazy mans route and buy a ati procharger. hey, thats a idea-small procharger like 600b and a turbo. reduces lag and keeps on going way into rpms.

TT440 07-16-2001 08:54 AM

Sequential turbos are good for some applications. They're more of a trinket and smooth power adder than a major power increase. It was a great idea for stock style cars.

Every body bitches about lag. If you do it right, the lag is hardly noticable. If I ease into the throttle, I can feel the turbos catch up and start moving the car. If I romp down on it, they take a second or so to get up to speed, but that allows me to get off the line and moving before the tires go up in smoke. My setup is tight enough that I can rev the engine to 6000 in neutral and will have 8 psi of boost before I get my foot off the pedal. Is that quick enough spool up for ya?

The procharger will go in with half the work of a turbo setup. You will get decent power, but it still won't beat a pair of turbos. You'll be sucking down three times the power to turn the blower than what I use to spin the turbos.
I also like the fact that turbos have a longer life when cared for properly.

curious 07-16-2001 12:42 PM

yeh, i was wondering if maybe turbo lag could be a good thing. i noticed gn's didnt have nearly the tire spin i expected. thank you for bearing with me. i ve only recently been turned on to turbos for v8s. after seeing 2 mopars and hearing a gn open wide-oh man whata sound.

goose 07-16-2001 05:14 PM

Do you have an estimate on how much weight the turbo system added to the car? I've thought about doing a twin-turbo setup much like you've got, but wasn't sure just how much extra weight I'd be adding. The car is a '55 Plaza 2-door wagon with the 259 Polysphere, stock it has like 7.5 to one CR... ought to take plenty of boost even with factory pistons!

TT440 07-16-2001 07:50 PM

If you use headers and loose the manifolds, I'd think the weight wouldn't change much at all. Depending upon the manifolds removed, you might loose a pound!
The entire turbo and plumbing setup probably added 30 lbs. They're really not that heavy.

goose 07-16-2001 09:39 PM

That doesn't seem too bad... also I would be going from a cast iron intake to an aluminum one (hopefully I can find one for that engine), which will help.
I have been reading with great interest in Hot Rod magazine for the last 2-3 issues which have a lot of turbocharging articles, both tech and feature cars. It certainly appears that in the last 5 years or so turbos have matured an awful lot and are really the best choice, assuming one does their homework.

TT440 07-16-2001 10:09 PM

absolutely!
 
They really are the best choice going.
LIke it or not, you've got to admit the Buick Grand National was fast for a car of it's type. It really brought the turbo into the public eye. As it started to die out, all of the imports came on the scene and threatened the older V8 cars.
Now that the required technology is getting cheaper and readily available, things are looking up. The turbos are getting cheaper to manufacture and the information is readily available.

The power is incredible too. Can you name a single supercharged (not turbo) car that has won at any endurance race in the past decade? There's a reason CART uses turbos instead of blowers. Maybe it's an attempt to make their cars too fast for the Texas Motor Speedway?

6pakman 07-16-2001 10:30 PM

:IV JUST BEEN READING WHAT YOU GUYS ARE TALKIN ABOUT AND IM WAY THE HELL OUT IN LEFT FIELDWHEN IT COMES TO TURBO SETUPS. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOUR PICTURES. CAN I GET THE WEB ADDRESS ?THIS I GOTTA SEE. THANKS.confused:

tuffbird 07-16-2001 11:28 PM

Hey TT440....I think I'm hooked on the Turbo idea...

Would doing a single turbo on a 440 be worth it? I was considering picking up a T03 unit but what all is involved besides bending the exhaust around and feeding the intake?

Basically, what is the cost of setting up a Turbo system and what are the modifications that must be done?

regards,
Tuffbird

TT440 07-17-2001 12:39 AM

hmmmmmm
 
Here's da site: TT440
It should have enough techie info crammed together to make you sick. The second and third pages have the pictures.

A Garrett T03? You may want to go a wee bit larger. My '85 Shelby Charger had a T3 Garrett on it's 2.2 liter.

MY turbine housings are maxed out (Stage III) T3 .48 A/R pieces. The compressors are T04E items with some of the latest wheels. They are sized about right. I sure wouldn't want to go any smaller!
I plan on using T3s on the TT318. They're a bit on the small side, but I won't be going for that much RPM. After all, it is a Grand Fury cop car. :D

I dropped about $2500 on the turbos, associated hardware, and every piece of air/exhaust tubing in the car. It could be done for less. Much less.

If you're interested in turbos, buy the book Maximum Boost by Corky Bell. Incredible stuff. You can also search the net. There are lotsa good pages out there.
Whatever you do, gather and understand as much information as possible and don't be afraid to consult with the pros. I have learned quite a bit over the last couple years and I'll help where I can. When it comes to selecting the actual turbos for your car, I suggest letting the turbo builder take over.

goose 07-17-2001 04:34 PM

You mention that you could have done your project for a lot less money; how so? Would doing the project for less have compromised its performance? What, if anything, would you change if you were going to do this over? I look forward to seeing progress reports on your tt318... I may model my tt259 Poly after your 318.

TT440 07-17-2001 07:44 PM

If I had a welder, I could have saved several hunderd dollars in labor.
Using integral wastegates would have dropped nearly $400 and wouldn't make much of a difference at current boost levels.
I've got one used turbo for the 318. It cost me $35. I paid $632 each for my hybrids. I can have the T3s remanned for around $300.
Using a modified mechanical fuel pump would have saved about $150.

I've priced out my TT318 conversion at $400-$500 total. It will be a very shallow budget toy. The idea is to see how cheap I can be and still get a reliable system.

As for the TT440, I plan on upgrading to a SpeedPro injection system and 5 or 6 speed tranny. The Cummins intercooler will feel right at home with the 15 psi that is in the works. I should be able to pull an easy 850 hp and still get 17-19 mpg. :D

djswwg 07-17-2001 10:03 PM

:D and hey there TT, don't forget the dragstrip times and m.p.h. when you get that done..............:D ............djs

curious 07-17-2001 10:25 PM

i must ask, how does this sound? i ve saw some parts waste gates/blow off valves that may actually make it too loud for the street. they dump the extra boost/exhaust right on to the ground instead of going back to the airfilter/exhaust system. i imagine it sounds pretty sweet once the turbos catch up.

djswwg 07-17-2001 10:38 PM

Hey Curious, I just went to your site and took a peek around. It isn't crappy and dosen't suck. Don't be so hard on your self! ........djs :cool:

curious 07-17-2001 10:44 PM

well thank you very much. theres nothing on it yet except a few items i started on and remnants of the original template. i had a drag-race game but it doesnt work. have only a few pics and half written performance articles. someday it will be a handy performance resource but for now it kinda sux. i hope to use tt440s knowledge for a article. my site will be like combing allota hotrod/carcrafts into one free library. its not illegal because im not plagerizing.

curious 07-17-2001 11:05 PM

i found a pic of a twin turboed big block chrysler but it might not show up since im used to using YaBB code.
http://bearshobbies.bizland.com/frontview_small.jpg

TT440 07-18-2001 09:35 AM

I've seen that car. The owner's son is a member of Moparts. It's scary fast. Deep into the single digit quarter times.

A wastegate blowing into the atmosphere would be the same as having a 1" hole in your exhaust. All it does is open the valve to bypass the turbo. It would vent the exhaust into the atmosphere.

A blow off valve makes a wooshing sound when it opens. Many of the ricers put Godzilla sized horns on their BOV to make it trumpet instead of sounding like a splash of air. I find 'em overly annoying.
My BOVs came off a pair of 2.2 turbo engines. Instead of paying $400 for an aftermarket piece, I spent $5 each on junk yard items.

goose 07-18-2001 04:05 PM

mods to t3
 
Since a turbo is just another device that flows air, it's safe to assume that porting/polishing the turbo itself will help things a lot. Any specific areas one should concentrate on when P+P a turbo?


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