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  #1  
Old 08-28-2002, 12:19 AM
E Strong E Strong is offline
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Question Which Aluminum Heads

I am building a 68 Chysler, daily driver. I want more power. I plan to use either Edelbrock or Indy Aluminum Heads. Which is best and why? This is a street car but high performance is my goal. The engine is a 440- .030 over. I have the stock cam and a Comp cams Magnun 270. Which would you choose? I am looking for torque more than HP. Also I have to replace the Hooker super comp Headers ( rust ). I have decided on Headman for $ 215, but am open to suggestions. What compression ratio can I get away with on 92 octane pump gas. Any help greatly appreciated!

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Old 08-28-2002, 01:52 AM
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Go with the Edelbrock heads. They will cost you less money than the Indy heads and they are a direct replacement. The Indy heads will require other work be done to the engine and are more for the strip than the street.

The Edelbrock Heads will allow you to go about 10.5:1 with pump gas.
  #3  
Old 08-28-2002, 07:49 PM
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We have had this discussion before and Ed and I totally agree. I have run the Indy SR's side by side with the Edelbrocks on the DYNO and there is not one advantage to the Indy S/R's up to .580 lift camshafts. There is about $1000.00 difference in price.

This does not even consider the price and performance on the Indy 440-1. The average user cannot utilize these heads to their performance level, and cannot justify the cost.

When I mentioned this to Indy.....their answer was.....well you can port the S/R's to the 440-1 specs and you can't do that with the Edelbrocks.

For the dollar spent, there is no better head than the Edelbrock.

I hope Ed and everyone else who has actually tested them will agree. I bought two sets of Edelbrocks for the price of one set of Indy S/R's delivered.
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Old 08-29-2002, 02:50 PM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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Use the Edelbrock heads for your application.
Most of the expensive High Performance aluminum heads like the Indy and B1 heads only out flow the Edelbrocks at high valve lifts.

In Fact look at the airflow comparison at 0.500" (@ 28" water)
Edelbrock = 278
Ported Stage VI = 265
Stock B1 B/S = 263
Ported B1 B/S = 297
Stock Indy 440-1 = 269
Original (Stock) B1 = 280

I thought I had some numbers for the Indy S/R, but I couldn't find them.

With your mild cam, using one of the more expensive heads is just wasting money.

The Edelbrock heads have a very good port shape and a minimul port volume that creates higher air/fuel speeds through the port. This is what you want on a street engine! The small port volume limits the total airflow at higher valve lifts. Bracket race heads like the B1 B/S and Indy S/R have larger ports and flow more in the higher lift range and usually use cams with between 0.600" and 0.750" valve lift. The Edelbrock heads are good for cams under 0.650" lift, but if you are going over 0.600" the edelbrock heads should use stiffer valve springs and they could be ported to aid the high lift port flow.
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Old 08-30-2002, 12:47 AM
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I will defenately run EB heads on my 440.
66Plymouth
  #6  
Old 08-30-2002, 02:56 AM
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Boy Vic's (EB) 440 heads must be significantly better than their SB heads - cause I am not impressed with their SB head. Nice piece of Aluminum but valve job stinks, port work stinks, etc...

It needs a ton of work (they all do). but you can't get a decent valve spring in them to save your life (roller stuff needs seat pressure - good luck).

Oh, I almost forgot... They also on the SB heads cut out the material behind the guide boss and that just kills the heads. Especially from 350 to 500 lift. (must have been cheaper to make them that way) - That's 20 CFM right there!

I do like their exhaust port a ton for a production series head... Just kills the best cast iron...

In SB you are better of getting married to a W series head if you are looking for 500+ HP. By the time you dink around with gettig the valve train to work right - you might just as well go W series...

INDY is very pricey for what you get - IMO... Not impressed - infact - I am less impressed with them than EB because they want twice as much... Don;t understand INDY's choice in rocker gear... Good Gear but they just kill them with they way they set up their stands...

AWW... Sorry - it's late and had a hell of a day on the dyno today and I'm just plain tired... Rambled on about small blocks when the question was about Big Blocks...

One word... for you on Big Blocks... B1 - hands down... Don;t know where the flow bench numbers came from... probably a hot super flow - paid for by Vic (EB)...

We have flowed most of those heads on our real bench with real numbers... And the B1 just kills the others listed - son;t know about the EB's as we did this a while ago and I don't the 440 head being out - or maybe we just could not get our hands on one - can't remember now...

I will look for our sheets... Trust me B1 - no doubt - call the guys at Brodix and just talk with them a while - top notch!

I will say the B1 may be a bit much for even what I call a street car - We make 10 - 11 second street cars all day long... and most people don't consider that street.

Later,

Mike Much
2 Much Racing & Machine




  #7  
Old 08-30-2002, 12:16 PM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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The Edelbrock flow numbers are the ones published by Edelbrock, so yes, it is not an apples to aples flow comparison. For a street/strip head I really love my Koffels (Brodix) B1 B/S heads as they are reall good quality castings, nicely finished, and have the best quench (heart shaped) combustion chamber with the re-located spark plug loaction, these small 65cc heads make alot of compression with light weight, flat top pistons, and you do not have to run allot of ignition advance with these heads. The reason I say use the Edelbrocks for a mild cammed street engine is COST! The Brodix B1 B/S heads are twice the cost of the Edelbrock heads and I believe both heads in unported, stock form would make about the same power when using a cam with under 0.600" lift.

For those that Don't believe the Edelbrock heads work, just check out These articles of 440 buildups ( about 10:1 compression) with stock Edelbrock heads:
Mopar Muscle October 2001, 543HP, 558 ft/lbs
Car Craft November 2001, 535 HP, 583 ft/lbs with a 230/236 @ 0.050" duration cam and Performer RPM intake with spacer (I think could have used a larger carb too.)
Mopar Muscle January 2002, 544 HP, 557 ft/lbs (Hughes HE3038BL, 230/238 @ 0.050 duration cam), but with Mopar M1 single plane intake (notice the hit in torque compared to the RPM dual plane runs above.)
  #8  
Old 08-30-2002, 07:45 PM
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You missed the most current article, by Herb Mcandless. On a 440 with 9.2:1 compression, he picked up over 50 hp as compared to a pair of Aero-Heads 906s with standard valve size, 3 angle valve job, and some porting. The best intake was the Performer RPM.
  #9  
Old 08-30-2002, 10:46 PM
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This is one of those posts that could never end. And it could be filled with nothing but valid claims, no matter how opposite they appear. The specific engine,it's intended use, and the alotted budget, all come into play,

If you want to warm up a near-stocker, with a min., hassle/expense, the edelbrock, is going to be hard to beat. It arrives, nearer it's flow-potential than the others, which makes sense, in that I don't think it was envisioned, as a "race-head". It's a bolt-on, and it's good at that.

If it's to be a killer race motor, the B-1 has yet to be knocked off that throne. Untill it's done, well, it's just talk. It would be a lot more secure, there, if they'd remake those +.500" valve length ones they messed with prior to the TS. It would be alot less secure there, if Brewer could get his prices, in the ballpark.

In a contest between the indy 440-1 and the BS, head.(with no direct experience with either), I'd go with the BS. This is only because, as mentioned, earlier, the Brodix people are great, and I have done many different versions of Brodix, heads, and prefer their castings over anybodys.

While I won't argue "out of the box" performance, a Indy SR, if, properly prepared can easily go 330+cfm, at .580" lift.(not stage 1, or stage 2 crap, but prepared for a specific lift/combination) I don't see a edelbrock hanging with that. The snag here is proper prep.

Also, I believe the B1 flows, out of the box, in the mid-320's at .500" lift

All these heads, can be real good in their intended performance "slot", but if purchased complete, i'd take any of them apart and let a good shop set them up for you. We've had a couple of brand spankin' heads, come in here, that had .030" difference in the valve heights.
  #10  
Old 08-31-2002, 01:25 AM
451Mopar 451Mopar is offline
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moeflo, sounds like your talking about the original B1 head, which is a really good head, but also really expensive and no stock parts work with it.
A really killer head is the Stage V Hemi conversion head. It has killer flow, but I think it's about $5,000 to convert to that head.
ehostler, I did see the article but If I rember correctly the engine was really mild? I think it still has exhaust manifolds on it?
Headers and a good cam and the power should really take off.
  #11  
Old 08-31-2002, 07:10 AM
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Yah, I think Koffels made a smart move by having Brodix cast their heads. Quality 1st and I like that too. Also why I run B1-B/S heads. As 451 stated, good design, too. The relocated plugs are a SOB to make headers for,tho. Thats really the only drawback to them. The Brewers are a canted I believe(few have ever SEEN one)as are the B1-TS. Pure wedge, the Original B1 does still rule! Indy has had their 572-13 and 600-13 Big Valve wedges out for a while but still cant dethrown the B1! The Original B1's flow @ .500 lift,btw,is 325 CFM(out of box) as shown in the Brodix catalog I got.

Mc Candless is working with Vic on the mopar stuff. But,still, the quality is not like Brodix.IMO
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Old 08-31-2002, 09:56 AM
turbotim23 turbotim23 is offline
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Default Which Aluminum Heads

I'm sending my Eldebrocks out to get valve job redone and ports ported, polished and decks cut. They say that they don't flow what eledebrock claims,also valve angles and seats are put in the cheapest way.most are out of round.Also you won't make any more horse power over a ported iron head if you don't raise compression to take advantage of the aluminum's better heat loss.The idea of throwing a box stock set of Eldebrocks on and making huge power gains just isn't true!
  #13  
Old 08-31-2002, 01:09 PM
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Maybe you should tell that to Herb Macandless <sp?>, who has run this on the dyno at Indy heads (with the help of Indy techs). Maybe Herb is smoking some funny weed (I doubt it).

On the other hand, if you expect to see performance gains and retain stock manifolds (intake & exhaust), then it's not going to happen.

Herb ran the tests with 9.2:1 static compression, a nice pair of 906s, comp cams version of the 6 pak cam, TTI headers and the Performer RPM intake. He then swapped the heads (just the heads) to the EB 6092 heads (fresh out of the box, no work done to them) and saw a gain of 57 hp (399hp to 456 hp) at only 200 RPM higher.

On the other hand, I would only buy the heads through a quality machine shop, and have them peoperly inspected, before taking delivery. If there are any flaws, the machine shop can work with EB to make it right, for you.
  #14  
Old 08-31-2002, 04:44 PM
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I did'nt see the article, were the 906s fully ported? With a static CR of 9.2 to 1 the effective CR w/Ed would be around 8 to 1, would'nt it? Unless the chamber was that much different to bring the CR back up?? A gain of 57 hp seems almost unbeleivable unless the 906s were bone stock--specially with such a mild cam.
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Old 08-31-2002, 08:48 PM
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The article was in the September 2002 issue of MOPAR MUSCLE.

The article is by Herb McCandless. If you don't know who he is, he was well known for his work with Sox & Martin. He also is known as the owner/operator of McCandless Performance

This engine used a cast pistion at .060 down with 5cc valve notches. He retained stock 440 rods. The cam was a comp cams 21-244-4.

The heads were AeroHeads 906. The had the bronze valve guides, new springs, and 2.08/1.74 valves. The heads were at 86cc with a .022 head gasket. This brought the compression to an effect 9.2:1.

This is a basic factory stock engine.

Added to that was the Performer RPM intake and the 1 7/8 TTI headers.

That combo was run by Ken Lazzari at Indy Cylinder Heads.

The Super Flow Dyno measured a max of 399 hp @ 5,000 RPM and 477 lb-ft od torque at 3,700 RPM.

He then replaced the 906 heads with the 6092 heads (fresh out of the box). The 6092 heads measure 84cc, when you add in the thickness of the compostion gasket, you end up with about the same volume/compression ratio.

The next run on the Super Flow Dyno measured 456 hp at 5,200 RPM and 514 lb-ft of torque at 3,800 RPM.

Nown then, by the time you have machine your stock heads for the 2.14/181 valves, bought the larger valves, installed the heaver spring, and then cleaned up the ports, you have spent more money than you would have for the EB heads.

Like all heads, the EB heads have room for improvement. After some mild port, bowl, and valve seat work, they will be superior to any iron head (and cost alot less).

As a direct bolt on, the EB head is the most cost effective bang for the buck head on the market.

When you go to compare against the B1 heads or the Indy heads, you have to remember that they are more than twice the cost and they won't show an improvement until you exceed a .550 valve lift. The EB heads come with setup to handle a max valve lift of .600, because they were designed to fill the specific roll of mostly street with some strip. The other heads are designed for the roll of mostly strip with very little (if any) street use.
  #16  
Old 08-31-2002, 09:34 PM
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Thumbs up EB Heads

Well, I got a lot more response than I thought I would get, but I appreciate all the good advice. The Edelbrock Heads are the ones I choose because as I said from the beginning this is for Street use and I am looking for Torque. I already have a performer intake manifold and EB 750 Carb. 450-500 Hp with over 500 Ft. Lb. of torque is what I want for this setup. With a good set of headers this is easily achieved (my super comp headers are done for though). Thanks again, and remember drive fast!
P.S. At some point I will be going for a fair bit more zip but these heads will make lots of power with 10.5:1 compression.

Quick Claims Adjuster!!! Thanks
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Old 09-01-2002, 01:16 AM
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I agree, the E heads are ideal for most "hot street" applications. Thanks Ed for going to the trouble of typing all that! I should probably resubcsribe to MM, the corner news stand dose'nt always have it--but they ALWAYS have ChevyRod,ur, I mean, Hot Rod!

Good luck, E Strong, with your Chrysler and thanks for letting us debate the merrits of the variouis aluminum BB heads. Like moeflo alluded to, this is about our favorite topic!
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Old 09-01-2002, 01:22 AM
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The E heads are great right out of the box. It would take a very well ported factory head (906 etc) to beat a box stock E head. Last dyno test I was involved with we picked up close to 100 hp when switching from home ported 906 heads to box stock E heads.
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Old 09-01-2002, 12:26 PM
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Well, MOPAR Muscle wasn't by choice, for me. I used to be subscribed to High Performance MOPAR, but Primedia killed them, after they bought 'em. Primedia then gave all current subscribers MM subscriptions.

At least they aren't paying Govier for his articles, anymore.
  #20  
Old 09-02-2002, 12:36 AM
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Magnum 440, The head I saw, was reported to be a Brewer "protype", and this was years back, so pardon the fuzzy details. It was a true wedge, with conventional paired-intake runners. I believe this one accepted an AMC valve cover(I don't know why). It had a 11-deg valve angle,, and 6.400" OAL valves(big-chief, of the era valves) The floor of the intake port,, at the intake manifold mateing surface, was well above the valve cover rail, of a stock head,, as measured from the deck.

Mike Much, ever run across any of these?
  #21  
Old 09-02-2002, 01:21 AM
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Boy, has this thread gotten way off track. You have a big boat and you are trying to get torque? I think going with bigger port aluminum heads is money that could get better spent elsewhere! If you have a 4000+lb car you need more bottom end. Gotta have torque to get rolling!
Big ports it will be a pig off the line. A clean up in the bowls and 3 or 5 angle valve job will help. What carb, intake, pistons? What kind of R's this motor gonna do? Maybe a good RV cam from comp would be better. A more radical one than mild. What gears do you have?

GeeZ! Stay on task ,you need a well thought out package!
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Old 09-02-2002, 03:13 AM
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Rug, we tend to want to compare one head vs another. Sorry, I guess we hi-jacked this thread. E-Strong has already said hes going with the edlebrock for the reaons you mentioned.

moeflo,thanks for clearing that up. On "another board" there was going to be a "petition" to Edlebrock to look into a "Victor" BB head. The idea was to make it a "twisted wedge". Then the author of the thread(Streetwize)said he had talked to Fred Brewer about designing a "scaled down" version of his Pro Stock head, for a bolt-on street/strip applcation. Brewer did'nt think there would be any problem to do it! Said he just needs the capital,i.e. someone to financially back the project. I was(and still am)unsure what defines a "twisted wedge". I thought it was the same thing as a "canted valve"--like the BB Chevy, B1-TS and others. But I suspect I need some more "learnin" on this.

The stock valve angle is 15 deg,right? So I take it the 11 deg stands the valve up more? Anyway, its the long valves and runners with realatively small ports that make this head so appealing on a street/strip motor. Produces tons of torque and at lower rpm=less wear and tear!

I contacted Muscle Motors about availabilty and was informed that the head shows GREAT promise amd makes ALOT of HP! BUT, the quality of the castings are not yet up to the standards that they(MM)prefer--in order for them to be confident in selling them.

Hope thats not the end of story, I think it would be great to have a head like the Brewer available to us--at a reasonable price! I paid $2200. for my B1-B/Ss and would pay that much or more for a sophisticated head like the Brewer. BTW, I think your memory serves you well, What you described to me is pretty much what I remember Senatore saying in his book! Thanks
  #23  
Old 09-02-2002, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rug_Trucker
Boy, has this thread gotten way off track. You have a big boat and you are trying to get torque? I think going with bigger port aluminum heads is money that could get better spent elsewhere! If you have a 4000+lb car you need more bottom end. Gotta have torque to get rolling!
Big ports it will be a pig off the line. A clean up in the bowls and 3 or 5 angle valve job will help. What carb, intake, pistons? What kind of R's this motor gonna do? Maybe a good RV cam from comp would be better. A more radical one than mild. What gears do you have?

GeeZ! Stay on task ,you need a well thought out package!
Some people are of the oppinion that all C Body cars are thousands of pounds heavier than B body cars and unfortunately dismiss them as non-performance cars. I love it when somebody in a rustang or corsette makes this assumption. But a Mopar man should know better. Besides, the car started with 4100 Lbs. Doesn't mean I left it that way. A pig off the line? well this pig rips up mouter mounts like swiss cheese. The car has 3.23 sure grip. I am planning 10.5 compression, and a high energy cam for torque. It has an Edelbrock Performer Intake and 750 EB carb! It already has a 3 angle valve job and mild ported heads. I have replaced several cast iron parts for aluminum, water pump and housing, intake manifold. Cast exhaust replaced with light weight Super Comp headers. etc. The great thing about driving a big car is the look on the face of someone in a compact or mid size ( sports ) car when they try to pass when I don't let them. I bet I get more
compliments on my car than most people do with well know muscle cars. After all the 300 was the first muscle car that I know of.

Snort Snort Snort!

Quick Claims Adjuster!!!
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Old 09-05-2002, 09:50 PM
Dart_440 Dart_440 is offline
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Default Edelbrock heads suck!

Edelbrock heads are only good after you do another valve job on the heads, .011 run out on the seats sounds like quality. I stuck an 8 tho feeler guage between the valve and the head with the valve seated in the head..
And they wont do anything about it.
Should of bought some indys or B-1's.
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Old 09-05-2002, 11:02 PM
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Hey Dart, so far, you're the only person on this board to have had a problem with the EB heads. As I recall, they said they would make it right if you paid for shipping. That is the primary reason that I suggest getting them through a good machine shop, like Hughes or Dvorak and having them properly inspected. If they find problems (like you described), they will hash it out with EB at no additional cost to the purchaser.

One bad pair does not constitute poor quality on the entire product line. If that were the case, I would never own another MOPAR, after the lemon that I bought a few years ago.
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Old 09-06-2002, 11:02 PM
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Magnum, it would be good to see Edelbrock do a "next step" head. They did a nice 15-deg head for small fords, , so they, no doubt have the expertise, to "clean-sheet' a piece for a given block. I guess the problem is, once you get away from a guys ability to use existing pistons, manifolds, etc, the potential market goes down fast. But I still like to see what companies come up with next.

Chapman has a new "stage IV" dedicated casting, but, I believe, it's only avaliable off his CNC machine. So it will be pricy. A reported 380, or so, cfm.(yep, nothing in common with a mopar stage IV)

Rug, we do drift, sorry, but we just can't help it.
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Old 09-07-2002, 02:24 AM
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Moeflo--Chapman..where have I seen that name? Sounds familiar but cant remember anything about his heads. Can you tell more? You piqued my curiousity, allright!

E-Strong--I'm gonna have to guess cause, I admitt,my C-Body knowledge could be better..But,I bet you have a Chrysler 300E--thus your handle "E Strong"! Right?

BTW, I was SERIOUSLY thinking of getting a '50s era 300, 56 or 57 with, ofcourse, a hemi, befor I bought this Challenger 4 years ago.I STILL might consider a trade some day...
  #28  
Old 09-07-2002, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rug_Trucker
Boy, has this thread gotten way off track.
Hmmm.... He asked about aluminum heads and the entire thread has been about aluminum heads. Please explain how it has gotten off track.
  #29  
Old 09-14-2002, 12:15 AM
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Question 300-E

Quote:
Originally posted by Magnum440
Moeflo--Chapman..where have I seen that name? Sounds familiar but cant remember anything about his heads. Can you tell more? You piqued my curiousity, allright!

E-Strong--I'm gonna have to guess cause, I admitt,my C-Body knowledge could be better..But,I bet you have a Chrysler 300E--thus your handle "E Strong"! Right?

BTW, I was SERIOUSLY thinking of getting a '50s era 300, 56 or 57 with, ofcourse, a hemi, befor I bought this Challenger 4 years ago.I STILL might consider a trade some day...
Sorry but the E stands for Eric, not letter series car. I own a 68 Chrysler 300. I plan to bolt on The EB heads in the Spring. and a set of Diamond or Keith Black pistons with 10.5 or higher compression, and possibly a stroker crank. I would like to get my hands on a 63 300 J with optional 425 H.P. 413.

Quick Claims Adjuster!!!
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Old 09-14-2002, 12:56 AM
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Confused

I agree, the aluminum heads will need work. Casting for aluminum is not as forgiving and you may have problems out of the "box". I would go with the Hughes Stage I 906's at $885.
http://www.hughesengines.com/www/hug...eads/hp_bb.asp
You'll need the higher compression to get the same power if you use aluminum.???????????????????


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